What are your thoughts on Piper’s thoughts about denominations?
Comments
Saltandlight11says
I don’t think denominational lines are drawn near as thick in countrys where they die because of their faith. They cling to Christ because they absolutely must and He is most often all they have. But here…here we have everything. And we fight while people die without Christ. I hate it. I love convictions, I HATE the division they cause in the Western church. If we are under Christ, there should be a great sense of urgency to fight the battles He fought and to complete what He started.
What did He start but the building of the body of Christ, His kingdom in this world? His Father’s glory is why He came…to bring a people to Himself. Evangelism-spreading the TRUTH of Christ to all the nations, tribes, and tongues. That was His focus. While He did stand firmly on the truth, He did not sit and discuss the finer points of Grace with those who were leading Him to die on the cross.
Jesus did not care about His honor, He didn’t tell the disciples when He sent them out, “Go and defend my name and rain fiery brimstone on all who refuse to listen.” He said, “Go and make disciples…” Last time I checked, in-fighting drives people away from the church. Not that we don’t need good apologetics, we do. We need to stand firm for the truth we are delivering or we deliver nothing.
Bottom line is this….a house divided can never stand. I see many divisions in the western church. Factions. And they seem to be prideful and not grounded in love for Christ but puffed-up knowledge and personality preferences. Apologetics are awesome, But Christ told Peter to put away the sword. We preach the truth because we love Jesus, we tell lost people the truth because we love Jesus. If we spend all our time arguing and none of our time telling, what love is there in that?
Does the establishment of a denomination have to imply spiritual disunity? Is it possible to say, “Either the Scriptures or my own conscience will not allow me to support the doctrines you affirm, and while these doctrines are deeply significant, they are not the most essential elements of the Gospel. So, while I’ll fellowship with you over a meal and/or head out on a mission trip with you, as I would any other brother in Christ, your affirmation of the deeply significant doctrine(s) that either violate(s) Scripture or my conscience prevent(s) me from sitting under your teaching/preaching on a weekly basis.”
This is, for example, how I view some of my Presbyterian (PCA) brothers and sisters, who insist upon baptizing infants. While I simply cannot submit to the assertion that unbelievers may be baptized, I do love much of what comes out of that particular denomination. In fact, I utilize many of those guys’ sermons and commentaries in preparation for my own preaching and teaching. There is certainly no division among us about the essential elements of the Gospel, and there is almost no division about any other issues at all, so I can say with great sincerity, “I love you as a brother in Christ,” and also say, “But infant baptism is, I believe, a violation of Scripture and certainly of my own conscience, so I can’t submit myself and my family to that teaching.”
The same is true for some of my Methodist brothers and sisters, who, in an attempt to highlight the reality of human responsibility, have essentially denied the sovereign work of God by placing the responsibility for obtaining and maintaining salvation on men. Given that this issue is deeply connected to the greater glory of Christ, I cannot, in good conscience, subject myself and/or my family to the potentially harmful teaching that salvation rests on the free will of men and that the perseverance in salvation likewise rests on the free will of men. That said, my Methodist brothers and sisters believe the Gospel, and, as such, I have fellowship with them.
Thoughts?
Saltandlight11says
No, I believe denominations are necessary. Revelations mentions 7 angels of 7 churches, lampstands, stars, etc…I have never thought of those just in terms of location (Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, etc…) but as distinctly different bodies with different personalities and foci. Though they were all built on the work and life of Christ, they had different challenges, issues, strengths, and weaknesses. So I believe it is today. I was not arguing against denomination, but the thick, hard line they seem to draw in the Western church.
Throughout the persecuted world, there are denominational lines, but much less division. I think thats because they are focused on the war, and along with that the necessity of fighting in unison, together rather than with each other. I imagine they debate the Word in their homes late at night after a difficult day of church business. I do not think that debate defines who they are or separates them in their urgency as it does us.
I can love brothers and sisters of many denominations when I know they are fighting the same war. There are some amazing warriors for Christ in other camps! I’ve met some Methodists, Presbys, Charismatics, etc… with an intense love for Christ. Are they way off on some very important issues? Most definitely. But they all believed Christ died on the cross for their sins and that He was the only way to God. They have a passion for telling the lost world about Him. I count it an honor to serve along side them (and adore opening the Word with them for loving discussion!). On the other hand, I have met many reformed in faith who beleive Christ died on the cross for their sins and that He is the only way to God, the 5 solas, etc… but have not an ounce of urgency or zeal for evangelism or prayer.
Reformed doctrine is the only way for me. I have been raised from a spiritual infant and steeped in its rich heritage. I could not sit under the teaching of an openly Arminian pastor. But I am with Spurgeon when he said of Wesley, “I expect he will be so close to the throne and I so far to the back that I may never lay eyes on him in heaven.” (para.) There are many who do not debate so zealously the line between sovereignty and human responsibility who are much closer to the heart of God than I because of their great love…which blurrs those pesky lines for me just a bit.
(Chad, you are one who balances beautifully and with whom I count it an honor to serve along side!)
gracesays
Love much of Pipers insights and teaching but it seems Paul is saying we do follow Christ anyone else is a mere man. When God returns will we have denominations? Is perfect love divided? or is it faithful, longsuffering,patient, not demanding it’s own way?
I cannot comprehend why we could not tolerate differences within a denomination, except of course something major ie deity of Christ, the gospel, the bible being God’s word.
However as we already have denominations it would be amazing if we could be salty and love each other as we should. One obvious division between true christ followers today, is calvinism vs arninianism. Oh that we could come together and love rather than the bickering we see and worse still the world sees. I pray God will move and give us a greater revelation of how we should love one another in Christ and therefor glorify him.
grace, thanks for your comment. Â I agree that perfect love is not divided, and I agree that most of what causes denominational splits is trivial. Â That said, I do see a place for Paul & Barnabas-type splits, where doctrinal differences and/or matters of conscience result in a split in which the divided parties regard one another as brothers and sisters, yet from a bit more of a distance. Â
For example, I do not believe the practice of infant baptism to be a biblical one, and I simply cannot join a church where that is practiced. Â But most of the commentators and authors I love to read and with whom I have much in common doctrinally are Reformed Presbyterian, and practice infant baptism. Â My stance toward the PCA in general is, “I love and am thankful for you guys and the love you have for God’s Word and the person of Jesus. Â I’d love to receive encouragement from you over a cup of coffee, hit the mission field together or maybe even room together at the next T4G conference, but my conscience and my understanding of Scripture just won’t allow me to condone infant baptism, so it’s probably best for the overall unity of the Spirit if you and I worship separately on Sunday mornings.”
Robin Coopersays
Denominations are not divided against each other as th Church of Christ think. Denominations agree on salvation by faith and complete atonement by Christ's blood. Justified by faith.
Robin, I think you’re on to something there. If we know that a denomination gets the basic Gospel right (i.e., that people are separated from a holy, good, and just God because of sin, that they have no way of repairing their condition, and that God the Father has in God the Son provided a sufficient substitute sacrifice for sin, and that people may be made right with God trusting that Jesus has accomplished on their behalf everything necessary to give them unending favor with God, and that, as result, joyful obedience increasingly characterizes the life of the believer), then while we may disagree on secondary issues, it’s crucial that we recognize them as “in house” discussions.
I don’t think denominational lines are drawn near as thick in countrys where they die because of their faith. They cling to Christ because they absolutely must and He is most often all they have. But here…here we have everything. And we fight while people die without Christ. I hate it. I love convictions, I HATE the division they cause in the Western church. If we are under Christ, there should be a great sense of urgency to fight the battles He fought and to complete what He started.
What did He start but the building of the body of Christ, His kingdom in this world? His Father’s glory is why He came…to bring a people to Himself. Evangelism-spreading the TRUTH of Christ to all the nations, tribes, and tongues. That was His focus. While He did stand firmly on the truth, He did not sit and discuss the finer points of Grace with those who were leading Him to die on the cross.
Jesus did not care about His honor, He didn’t tell the disciples when He sent them out, “Go and defend my name and rain fiery brimstone on all who refuse to listen.” He said, “Go and make disciples…” Last time I checked, in-fighting drives people away from the church. Not that we don’t need good apologetics, we do. We need to stand firm for the truth we are delivering or we deliver nothing.
Bottom line is this….a house divided can never stand. I see many divisions in the western church. Factions. And they seem to be prideful and not grounded in love for Christ but puffed-up knowledge and personality preferences. Apologetics are awesome, But Christ told Peter to put away the sword. We preach the truth because we love Jesus, we tell lost people the truth because we love Jesus. If we spend all our time arguing and none of our time telling, what love is there in that?
Does the establishment of a denomination have to imply spiritual disunity? Is it possible to say, “Either the Scriptures or my own conscience will not allow me to support the doctrines you affirm, and while these doctrines are deeply significant, they are not the most essential elements of the Gospel. So, while I’ll fellowship with you over a meal and/or head out on a mission trip with you, as I would any other brother in Christ, your affirmation of the deeply significant doctrine(s) that either violate(s) Scripture or my conscience prevent(s) me from sitting under your teaching/preaching on a weekly basis.”
This is, for example, how I view some of my Presbyterian (PCA) brothers and sisters, who insist upon baptizing infants. While I simply cannot submit to the assertion that unbelievers may be baptized, I do love much of what comes out of that particular denomination. In fact, I utilize many of those guys’ sermons and commentaries in preparation for my own preaching and teaching. There is certainly no division among us about the essential elements of the Gospel, and there is almost no division about any other issues at all, so I can say with great sincerity, “I love you as a brother in Christ,” and also say, “But infant baptism is, I believe, a violation of Scripture and certainly of my own conscience, so I can’t submit myself and my family to that teaching.”
The same is true for some of my Methodist brothers and sisters, who, in an attempt to highlight the reality of human responsibility, have essentially denied the sovereign work of God by placing the responsibility for obtaining and maintaining salvation on men. Given that this issue is deeply connected to the greater glory of Christ, I cannot, in good conscience, subject myself and/or my family to the potentially harmful teaching that salvation rests on the free will of men and that the perseverance in salvation likewise rests on the free will of men. That said, my Methodist brothers and sisters believe the Gospel, and, as such, I have fellowship with them.
Thoughts?
No, I believe denominations are necessary. Revelations mentions 7 angels of 7 churches, lampstands, stars, etc…I have never thought of those just in terms of location (Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, etc…) but as distinctly different bodies with different personalities and foci. Though they were all built on the work and life of Christ, they had different challenges, issues, strengths, and weaknesses. So I believe it is today. I was not arguing against denomination, but the thick, hard line they seem to draw in the Western church.
Throughout the persecuted world, there are denominational lines, but much less division. I think thats because they are focused on the war, and along with that the necessity of fighting in unison, together rather than with each other. I imagine they debate the Word in their homes late at night after a difficult day of church business. I do not think that debate defines who they are or separates them in their urgency as it does us.
I can love brothers and sisters of many denominations when I know they are fighting the same war. There are some amazing warriors for Christ in other camps! I’ve met some Methodists, Presbys, Charismatics, etc… with an intense love for Christ. Are they way off on some very important issues? Most definitely. But they all believed Christ died on the cross for their sins and that He was the only way to God. They have a passion for telling the lost world about Him. I count it an honor to serve along side them (and adore opening the Word with them for loving discussion!). On the other hand, I have met many reformed in faith who beleive Christ died on the cross for their sins and that He is the only way to God, the 5 solas, etc… but have not an ounce of urgency or zeal for evangelism or prayer.
Reformed doctrine is the only way for me. I have been raised from a spiritual infant and steeped in its rich heritage. I could not sit under the teaching of an openly Arminian pastor. But I am with Spurgeon when he said of Wesley, “I expect he will be so close to the throne and I so far to the back that I may never lay eyes on him in heaven.” (para.) There are many who do not debate so zealously the line between sovereignty and human responsibility who are much closer to the heart of God than I because of their great love…which blurrs those pesky lines for me just a bit.
(Chad, you are one who balances beautifully and with whom I count it an honor to serve along side!)
Love much of Pipers insights and teaching but it seems Paul is saying we do follow Christ anyone else is a mere man. When God returns will we have denominations? Is perfect love divided? or is it faithful, longsuffering,patient, not demanding it’s own way?
I cannot comprehend why we could not tolerate differences within a denomination, except of course something major ie deity of Christ, the gospel, the bible being God’s word.
However as we already have denominations it would be amazing if we could be salty and love each other as we should. One obvious division between true christ followers today, is calvinism vs arninianism. Oh that we could come together and love rather than the bickering we see and worse still the world sees. I pray God will move and give us a greater revelation of how we should love one another in Christ and therefor glorify him.
grace, thanks for your comment. Â I agree that perfect love is not divided, and I agree that most of what causes denominational splits is trivial. Â That said, I do see a place for Paul & Barnabas-type splits, where doctrinal differences and/or matters of conscience result in a split in which the divided parties regard one another as brothers and sisters, yet from a bit more of a distance. Â
For example, I do not believe the practice of infant baptism to be a biblical one, and I simply cannot join a church where that is practiced. Â But most of the commentators and authors I love to read and with whom I have much in common doctrinally are Reformed Presbyterian, and practice infant baptism. Â My stance toward the PCA in general is, “I love and am thankful for you guys and the love you have for God’s Word and the person of Jesus. Â I’d love to receive encouragement from you over a cup of coffee, hit the mission field together or maybe even room together at the next T4G conference, but my conscience and my understanding of Scripture just won’t allow me to condone infant baptism, so it’s probably best for the overall unity of the Spirit if you and I worship separately on Sunday mornings.”
Denominations are not divided against each other as th Church of Christ think. Denominations agree on salvation by faith and complete atonement by Christ's blood. Justified by faith.
Robin, I think you’re on to something there. If we know that a denomination gets the basic Gospel right (i.e., that people are separated from a holy, good, and just God because of sin, that they have no way of repairing their condition, and that God the Father has in God the Son provided a sufficient substitute sacrifice for sin, and that people may be made right with God trusting that Jesus has accomplished on their behalf everything necessary to give them unending favor with God, and that, as result, joyful obedience increasingly characterizes the life of the believer), then while we may disagree on secondary issues, it’s crucial that we recognize them as “in house” discussions.